So, if increased plant life causes more CO2 in the atmosphere, why don't we just continue to "save the planet" by clear cutting the rain forrests?

My HS chemistry taught me that a warm liquid can't hold as much CO2 as a cold liquid.......nah, it can't possibly be explainable by REAL science.

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"Peace is our Profession"

"Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is Divine. . . . Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants.
" - James Wilson, U. S. Supreme Court Justice and Signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution

Again, no thank you. I don't debate religion. You're right, Daisy. The AAAS is right. We're heading for Armageddon and we should all be deathly afraid. Please, forgive this sinner.

well Cato - I don't think the AAAS has talked about Armageddon, and I haven't either.

I'm interested in addressing these issues so that the future will be less difficult for my grandchldren, and their children etc ....

However, if you can't substantiate your claims that the AAAS document includes several statements that are not only demonstrably false, but are also rejected by many AGW proponents, then I can understand why you are not prepared to respond.

"global climate change... is a growing threat to society.... rapidly melting glaciers, increase in extreme weather, rising sea level, shifts in species ranges, and more... droughts, heat waves, floods, wildfires and severe storms is occurring... early warning signs of even more devastating damage to come..."

Droughts, heat waves, floods, famine, pestilence.... Sounds like it's right out of Revelations.
I can, but it wouldn't be a responsible use of my time. I can also substantiate how many statements in the Bible are demonstrably false, but I wouldn't attempt to do so with a devout Christian. You're firmly in the grasp of the Church of Global Warming, Daisy, and no amount of reason will sway you. You used to be a reasonable person, capable of thought and logic. Now you're getting your science and opinion from magazine publishers. I don't know what happened.

Heavily diverse ecosystems and their decay over long periods of time are responsible for an important component of naturally occurring greenhouse gases. Without this naturally occurring long term process the earth would be a much cooler place.

Im sure solubility does play a role.

Andrew

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there is a bit of a difference. melting glaciers HAVE been documented, rising sea levels HAVE been documented, the increase in extreme weather ... well ... there's no proof that events have been CAUSED by climate change, however certainly the weather events match what has been predicted. Shifts in species range are certainly occuring, and it is fairly well known what the impact will be ... Today I saw a source that suggested that changes in ant behaviour in Australia may affect the distribution and long term survival of several rare plant species ..... droughts heatwaves, floods, wildfires ... all occuring in recent years ... AND in line with the 'predictions' of scientists ... which weren't based on reading entrails ... or the stars ... but on the basis of scientific knowledge.

If you don't understand the difference between this, and the book of revelations which was cobbled together almost two thousand years ago from a very different basis ... well Cato ...

In the former, scientists use knowledge to evaluate the likelihood of certain types of events. Based on this information I am interested in looking at ways to minimise risk for future generations. In the case of rising sea levels, if the seas were likely to rise, say 5 metres in a hundred years (which is an absolute worst case scenario and a lot more than IPCC predictions) it wouldn't happen all in one hit, and forewarned is forearmed. In that period of time strategies could be put in place to develop and irrigate land on higher ground, and to gradually shift populations. Its sensible to think about the possible impact of rising sea levels. On the other hand, biblical prophecies are basically designed to strike fear into the hearts of all as a means to gain forced conversions. They offer no hope of solution - only 'salvation' for the fearful.

There is a considerable difference between science, based on knowledge, and religion, based on faith.

I am surprised you don't understand that.

well of course not. faith isn't based on reason

I must say I am surprised at this coming from you Cato. I had always thought that, even though we disagreed, you were a reasonable and logical person who would never resort to such tactics as denigrating your opponent in this way.

I can only guess at why you might behave in this way.

Gore Explains Global Warming to Congress

WASHINGTON, DC --- Al Gore came to Capitol Hill to explain global warming to Congress in simple terms that everyone could understand. He compared global warming to a baby with a fever.

"When your baby has a fever, what do you do?" said Gore. "You don't ignore it and hope it goes away. You fly that baby to the best hospital in the world on your private jet. You buy that baby new organs on the Chinese black market. You put that baby on a ventilator in a germ-free chamber with ten armed guards standing over him. You also destroy that baby's enemies with everything in your power. And that should explain global warming and what we need to do in order to stop it. I estimate that it would only take $13 billion per person in America to start earth's healing process. We have to move before it's too late."




from jerhad .com

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Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.

H. L. Mencken


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

We know enough of about 80 out of the some 6000 glaciers on this planet to make this statement. That is, you're basing your belief of global warming on the fact that less than .01% of the glaciers on this planet are melting. Not even all of the ones we know enough about to claim they are melting or not are even melting.
Sea levels have been rising for a long, long time - about 10,000 years. There has been no increase in extreme weather. If you come back with, "Yes there has." Then I want sources to prove this.
And they always have - species move around.

Regardless, this, and all the other apocalyptic "evidence", even if true, would only mean the planet is warming - something it's been doing since the acme of the current ice age. It says nothing about whether we caused it, or whether we can prevent it.

To believe we can control this planet's massive atmosphere by manipulating less than 1% of its composition makes absolutely no sense.
"I believe it is appropriate to have an over-representation of factual presentations on how dangerous (global warming) is..." - Al Gore
Any belief without proof is faith.
I'm not denigrating you at all, Daisy. You yourself admitted your belief is faith. How is it denigrating to agree with you? I've written how sad this makes me - to see a reasonable and logical person like you abandon reason and logic.

The atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide, a critical greenhouse gas, is higher than it has been for at least 650,000 years. The average temperature of the Earth is heading for levels not experienced for millions of years. Scientific predictions of the impacts of increasing atmospheric concentrations of greenhouse gases from fossil fuels and deforestation match observed changes. As expected, intensification of droughts, heat waves, floods, wildfires and severe storms is occurring, with a mounting toll on vulnerable ecosystems and societies. These events are early warning signs of even more devastating damage to come, some of which will be irreversible.

Delaying actions to address climate change will increase the environmental and societal consequences as well as the costs. The longer we wait to tackle climate change, the harder and more expensive the task will be.
[/quote]
There are plenty of scientists that dispute the AAAS' assertion that global warming is causing more intense storms, for example. The facts just don't support their Chicken Little assertions.


Even the IPCC admits that they don't know what the hell they're talking about.

__________________
843rd Bomb Wing - Strategic Air Command
"Peace is our Profession"

"Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is Divine. . . . Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants.
" - James Wilson, U. S. Supreme Court Justice and Signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution

Bush Administration:

YouTube - We fuck the world

__________________

And yet the facts wouldn't exactly support that claim. The truth is, our water, air, and land are in the best shape they've been in for over 40 years. And most environmental regulations continue to get more strict as the years pass.

Yes, We've gone an astounding 38 years without any major bodies of water Catching On Fire...

This must mean we won. Obviously nothing left to worry about when the water isn't combustable.

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Diplomacy is figuring out what you want to say, and then figuring out how not to say it...

@ Cato

perhaps you would be so kind as to refer to which studies have shown NO glacial melt. I found a quick search provided links to hundreds of studies, including small and large, significant glaciers, distributed through all climate zones.

I am sure that scientists would be interested to know which glaciers are not melting at all ... even East antarctica is losing ice.

yes sea levels HAVE been rising for a long time, however its easy to find evidence that in many regions the rise in has accelerated.

I haven't seen evidence that provides PROOF that intense hurricanes are going to be caused by climate change, only that it is likely that increased ocean temperatures may influence the severity. There have been variations in precipitation patterns in recent years - which in many instances have resulted in severe flooding. This is in line with predictions, although again, I don't believe it provides proof. I have studied enough history to be aware that these variations may occur naturally.

yes they do, and there are a range of variables that can influence this. However are you implying that biologists haven't taken that into consideration before publishing their findings?

on the surface, no - however the majority of scientists from around the globe who have been studying these patterns for years have come to the conclusion that there is a 90% certainty that anthropogenic factors play a part.

I don't see why I should trust them less than an accountant - and I'd rather bet that they know what they are talking about than a stockbroker.

maybe. but it will depend. how much cyanide do you need to add to a drink before it will poison you?


Please don't quote Gore at me. I haven't seen his film and have no interest in seeing it. My daughter tells me the film was totally over the top. He doesn't appear to have a focus that I can relate to.

I don't think that believing that scientists, who have spent decades researching issues, is 'faith' in quite the same sense as religious faith.

I think Cato you are smart enough to realize that I am not basing my beliefs on abstract concepts of churchmen.

Also Cato - you started this thread promoting a so called documentary that 'proved' the Global Warming theory was a swindle. I posted a link that showed, citing reputable science journals, that the theories proposed had been refuted.

Did you have anything further to say re this?

I started looking up these guys you referred to, JP - and I don't have an issue with them at all - they are - and quite rightly - not convinced of a link between hurricanes and global warming - however, for your information, Chris Landsea did say: "we certainly see substantial warming in the ocean and atmosphere over the last several decades on the order of a degree Fahrenheit, and I have no doubt a portion of that, at least, is due to greenhouse warming. The question is whether we're seeing any real increases in the hurricane activity."

and????

I thought it was pretty common knowledge that while it is true that increased water temperatures MAY influence intensity of cyclones etc - there is no proof that cyclonic activity IS linked to climate change.

I'm not going to provide the studies because most are in subscription journals. Here are a a few news articles from all over the world. Even one that attributes the growth to global warming. I love that, don't you? If glaciers melt, it's global warming. If glaciers grow, it's global warming.
I thought we were talking about a global problem and not a regio