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Reply With QuoteThe initial proposal by the gang of 8 says that before anything else is done, the border must be secured. Rubio has said that if that is not done first, there will be no deal. If the Mexicans can keep foreigners out, why the heck can't we?
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2011 USPOL Most Valuable Poster (MVP)
ahoy all,
o'er the past few years, i've kinda gotten the impression that conservatives (real conservatives, not republicans) believe that any talk 'bout reformin' immigration policies must begin first with a militarized wall to keep brown folks outta our country. thar was also the edict that whatever else happens, first them brown folks have to get outta our country.
thar be evidence 'o this on our own forums, too.
its also the dominant POV 'o many folks who ran fer the GOP nomination, on the right.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/20/us...ions.html?_r=0In the debate over immigration among the Republican presidential candidates, Representative Michele Bachmann of Minnesota signed a pledge last week to build double-fencing the entire length of the 2,000-mile border with Mexico.
Herman Cain called for an electrified border fence, 20 feet high with barbed wire.
Gov. Rick Perry of Texas, claiming superior experience as the leader of the state with 1,200 miles of the border, advocated a more complex strategy, combining fencing and surveillance technology with “a lot of boots on the ground.” Mr. Perry said that building a border-length fence would take “10 to 15 years and $30 billion” and would not be cost effective.
and then thar be the leader 'o the GOP last fall, Mitt Romney;
Despite Billion-Dollar Boondoggle, Romney Wants High-Tech Border 'Fence' | Danger Room | Wired.comMitt Romney wants a border fence. But he doesn’t just want to finish the physical fence that’s already there in bits and pieces. He wants a high-tech fence: you remember, the one that was tried, wasted a billion dollars, and didn’t work.
“As I have said many times, it is critical that we redouble our efforts to secure the borders,” Romney said to the National Association of Latino Elected and Appointed Officials on Thursday. “That means both preventing illegal border crossings and making it harder to illegally overstay a visa. We should field enough border patrol agents, complete a high-tech fence, and implement an improved exit verification system.”
me observation be that the GOP hath fully abandoned such a baseline conservative principle - the 2000 mile militarized fence, and good fer them.
suddenly thar be a sea change amongst the GOP on immigration, just like that.
*snaps his fingers*
Read more here: Obama: It’s time for major immigration fix | CharlotteObserver.comMany Republican leaders now support an immigration overhaul – even a pathway to citizenship – after a bruising election in which Hispanics voted overwhelmingly for Obama over Republican Mitt Romney, though a battle remains in Congress.
aye, Senators Sen. Jeff Flake of Arizona, John McCain of Arizona, Lindsey Graham of South Carolina and Marco Rubio of Florida hath joined with Democrats to allow fer a pathway to citizenship fer illegal aliens.
the plan even has a fast track fer the nation to take in more low wage workers, which be wonderful i suppose - farmers get special access to poverty stricken laborers, and don't have to pay Americans to do them difficult jobs afterall!
viva Alabama!
Senators detail immigration plan | CharlotteObserver.comThe plan has a significant new element that was not part of the 2007 initiative: undocumented farmworkers who “have been performing very important and difficult work to maintain America’s food supply while earning subsistence wages” could earn a path to citizenship through a different and presumably more lenient visa process for agricultural workers.
i give the GOP credit fer finally dispensin' with the loony bin faction' o thar party and movin' sensibly to the middle to meet the Democrats.
good news fer us all, mates. immigration reform be on the way, shiver me timbers!!!!
- MeadHallPirate
Moderator
The initial proposal by the gang of 8 says that before anything else is done, the border must be secured. Rubio has said that if that is not done first, there will be no deal. If the Mexicans can keep foreigners out, why the heck can't we?
The modern Liberal is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. OMD
Governor
Nah, the GOP is looking @ the long drought, their years in the wilderness after FDR - they don't want to do that again. & really, our political system - as currently constituted - needs 2 major parties that @ least have some political differences between them. Given the difficulties of getting a 3rd or any other minor party going on a permanent basis; it might be better to switch to a parliamentary kind of system. But that's for another time - I don't think there's much support for that massive a move @ this point.
No - if the GOP continues to fail miserably with women, African Americans, Hispanics, Asian Americans, unionized labor, & other segments - they'll be back to ranting beyond the pale for another generation or so. In that amount of time, the GOP could easily break up into more coherent political units, & the national party lost to history. Not a bad thing, if they can't or won't learn from their mistakes. The road for the next big national political party will be perilous, though. There will be lots of deals to cut before another minor party can make the big break.
2011 USPOL Most Valuable Poster (MVP)
ahoy OldmanDan,Originally Posted by OldmanDan
sure, the border must be secured. that language be both which be comfortin' and vague, just the thing to give cover to conservatives within the GOP to join with Democrats on the issue. thar be no fence, though, in the language. none, zippo, zero.
thank goodness.
plus thar be a pathway to citizenship, and the illegal aliens don't have to leave the country whilst waitin' to become citizens. plus, thar will be an influx 'o low wage foreign labor fer our farmin' interests, which they seem to need to survive.
- MeadHallPirate
Governor
(My emphasis)
They couldn't. Look @ a map of New Spain/Republic of Mexico circa 1840. Or a map of la Florida in the early 1800s. All those place names in Spanish - wonder where they came from ... The US colonists who settled in the Mexican state of TX promised to convert to Catholicism (if they weren't already), free their slaves (if any), become loyal Mexican citizens, uphold the Mexican laws ...
2011 USPOL Most Valuable Poster (MVP)
ahoy Hoosier88,
well, thars that too.
i just preferred to see it as a mellowin' 'o conservative rhetoric coupled with a move to the center, me hearty.
Tea Party on ImmigrationTea Party groups may differ on details, but when it comes to immigration, they support deportation of undocumented residents and enforcement of existing laws. Most important, the movement believes the United States should stop the flow of illegal traffic across the U.S.-Mexico border by any necessary means.
The Tea Party proponents are opposed to comprehensive immigration reform that includes a pathway to legal residency or citizenship.
Jim Demint must be fumin'.
- MeadHallPirate
Moderator
How do the Mexicans deal with illegal immigrants?
There are also employer sanctions in the proposal so I wouldn't get my hopes up about hiring a couple to carry your camera bags.
The modern Liberal is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. OMD
Moderator
The GOP will do quite well when the currency collapses and the Democrat have no more money to buy votes.
The modern Liberal is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. OMD
2011 USPOL Most Valuable Poster (MVP)
ahoy OldmanDan,How do the Mexicans deal with illegal immigrants?
There are also employer sanctions in the proposal so I wouldn't get my hopes up about hiring a couple to carry your camera bags.
aye, thank goodness thar finally be employer sanctions bein' proposed (which imma frankly confused about. isn't it already illegal to hire illegal aliens?).
long o'erdue.
- MeadHallPirate
Moderator
It is only illegal when they enforce the law.
The modern Liberal is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. OMD
Moderator
You are still dodging my question. Why can Mexico protect the border from their side but we can't from our side?
The modern Liberal is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. OMD
2011 USPOL Most Valuable Poster (MVP)
ahoy OldmanDan,
i don't understand yer question, matey.
the Mexicans can protect the border from their side? what does that mean? are ye sayin' that Mexico is able to keep americans from enterin' thar country illegally?
- MeadHallPirate
Governor
Nah, Mexico savages illegal immigrants in transit across the country (they're not usually trying to stay in Mexico, Mexico's just sorta in the way as they try to get to US or Canada). Immigrants are fair game - robbery, assault, rape, murder, holding for ransom - & other assordid acts. Come to think of it, given the rhetorical excesses of the recent GOP prexy candidate debates - there's not all that much difference - @ least, from a rhetorical point of view.
The border equivalent of "wildings" - boys will be boys, & what's a spot of gunning down the illegal alien between neighbors, hey? These incidents seem to be in the more isolated areas of CA & TX. Of course, concentrated border interdiction efforts in El Paso & the major urban areas, the push on border crossing barriers in the same areas - push illegal entries to the harsher & more demanding desert/mountainous areas - where people get exhausted, dehydrated, lost, break an ankle, fall into arroyos, suffer sun stroke & so on. Think of it as a weeding process - you have to really want to come to the US & do tough labor, in order to preservere & get through the obstacles. Kind of a True Grit kind of life-or-death exam. & passing grades are only provisional ....
Moderator
If it was that hard, how did we end up with 12 million of them since Reagan legalized the previous batch?
The modern Liberal is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. OMD
Moderator
Mexico deals harshly with illegal aliens and doesn't have a problem. We don't do much of anything to keep them out and once they get here, we feed and support them.
The modern Liberal is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. OMD
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